Technically, ghost and demons are two different thiings. Ghosts are the disembodied energy of humans and animals; demons, however, are a different thing entirely. Demons are a semiphysical entity composed of hate and nightmares. They are the "bad feelings" that people have, just magnified.
I've been witness to severalt "true" hauntings. I've seen the faces; I've seen the levitations, and I've seen the photogenic writings. All of which, I saw firsthand. I've yet to experience a possession, but I'm (yes/no) looking forward to one. I've read the case files, but the best documentation is photos, and audio. And yes, in 90% of cases, ouija bords were present. I hate the damn things; the SOB's work, I have personal expereince with those.
And for anyone wondering how I've been able to do all of this, I have had the experience of assisting several mediums on a few cases, and once, having the "pleasure" of being the medium, because one said that I had "potential". That's how I have access to this info(Not to mention several personal experiences).

guess we have different view on what demon really is. demon is fallen angels, they are evil spiritual beings trying to decieve humans at all cost. bible says they need hosts to live in(i dont understand why exactly) and that explains imitating deceased humans(ghost) and haunts houses etc until they seek new ones(possessed). medium's power also comes from demon. meddling with such is dangerous as well.

just a fair warning, such invitation could destroy your life. demons are powerful. they arent to play with and they will never be for us(i'm sure they can pretend to help us..for awhile that is). it may be attractive to you right now, but you'll regret it sooner or later.

medium's power also comes from demon.

Uhh...no. A medium's(psychic's) power is their own. ESP is an instinctive ability that all people are born with. The reason that it is so looked down upon is simply because of religion. They seem to have forgotten that one very powerful psychic was made a Saint. Joan of Arc ring a bell?
ESP, if not trained, or practiced with regularly, withers, and becomes rudimentary to the point that it is only used reflexivly(ever been afraid of a place and not know why?). Sorry to be so forceful, but I hold ESP in high regards simply because I have seen too much, and have had too many experiences to disbelieve its existance or its origins. There are studies done on it; look them up. It is widely accepted that it relates to the Peinial Gland; commenly referred to as the "Third Eye".

Main Entry: de·mon
Variant(s): or dae·mon /'dE-m&n/
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English demon, from Late Latin & Latin; Late Latin daemon evil spirit, from Latin, divinity, spirit, from Greek daimOn, probably from daiesthai to distribute -- more at TIDE
1 a : an evil spirit b : a source or agent of evil, harm, distress, or ruin
2 usually daemon : an attendant power or spirit : GENIUS
3 usually daemon : a supernatural being of Greek mythology intermediate between gods and men
4 : one that has exceptional enthusiasm, drive, or effectiveness <a demon for work>


From m-w.com.

As you see, the dictonary definiation encomposes both ideas of what a demon is. The only definiation I worry about is demon=evil. I think we can all agree on that.

Besides, while the movie was creepy, I wouldn't post something that had caused actual physical or psychological harm to others.

ppl still argue that joan of arc didnt really hear from God but from devil. i watched the movie and i cant make up my mind either. but there was no indication that she ever claimed her power was from her own.

it doesnt take special ability to sense evil. we have our spirit after all(but blinded by sin). it is great idea to think we are more than what we are..but that's first mistake adam plunged mankind into damnation and even today, everyones making that same mistake everyday. i use to watch phychics on tv all the time and believed what they were saying. slyvia browne almost convince me to kill myself because she straight out and said "it is ok". i didnt tell anyone about this but i saw hell and then face of Jesus the night i went into my closet and try to kill myself. i had no idea why i saw face of Jesus because slyvia mentioned nothing about Him. i hear now that slyvia is mentioning Jesus and quotes bible to decieve more ppl(even the devil does it). i read books about ppl with special ability, how they move objects with their minds, predict future, communicating with dead, telling us that we are capable of more so i'm not completly ignorant on this subject like you think i am.

it gives me chill everytime i think of it, not because i have religion or however you want to put it, i have experienced it as well(seeing ghost i mean). when Jesus opened my eyes, i sense tremondous evil surrounding those phychics i use to watch. let your mind consider the origin of power it comes from and becareful what you are dealing with. that's all i'm saying.

I'll take your arguement into consideration. I guess that I've never really had this dicussion with someone that is as observent in thier religion, and it really does change my thoughts quite a bit. Just know that those I've worked with, and the work that I have done were all in the sake of helping others.
I just defend this subject rather adimently due to experiences, and study. You are one of the few that have countered with more intelligence than here-say. For that fact you have really earned my respect(and a good deal of admeration). Take care slippers, and my His light keep you safe.

sabe, thank you for taking it into consideration. it was interesting discussion i had in awhile that's for sure. your complement gives me great confidence to share my belief more often. God bless.

I always thought that demons were fallen angels. The angels that fought w/ Lucifer in the rebellion against God were cast out of heaven and fell, changing into hideious creatures (taking away their beauthy was part of the punishment).
Ghosts and Poltergeists are disembodied souls that have not left the human plane of existence; sometimes because they don't know/understand that they're dead or they are so angry over their death it "stuck" to their soul. They can't move on to the afterlife until their issues are resolved.
Me personally, I think Joan of Arc did have conversations with a divine being, probably not the big G, but a messenger angel like the writers of the bible.
Not all people with psychic ability are bad or evil, I think they are just more in touch with the spiritual rhelm that surrounds us.
Reguardless of your religion it would be good to remember that we are not human beings having a spiritual experience, we are spiritual beings having a human experience.

So proud of you guys for keepin this thread flame free! :happy:

I agree with what Lady says completely...I've actually done a lot of research on stuff like this. I'm kinda what you might call a self employeed Paranormalist lol. ^_^;

It makes it a hell of a lot easier to keep the flaming down when your "opponent" uses intelligence to defend his stance. That also makes it a lot more enjoyable, too.
HC, your a fan of this type of stuff? Great! I love being able to sit and talk to people about it, it's fun. I may have to go start a Rando thread about paranormal experiences...

I love the paranormal, if you do that, I'll be right there and I'll try to be your first poster! I love to talk with people about ghost encounters, polterguists, and of course EVP...all of those things totally catch me interest!

I split this from the Car commercial thread. This looks like it might be an interesting dicussion. Just remember that religion can be a touchy subject, so make sure you keep your replies NON-FLAMITORY. Or however you spell it. ^_^;

Slippers, you mentioned that a demon needs a host body to live, and were wondering why. If I were to go with the info I have, both on posession, and general demonology, I'd give you this:

During a posession, the human body can be seen to quickly deteriorate, and eat at itself. Demons have also been classified under the name, "The Famished" or "The Eaters". This would lead one to beleive that they subsist on flesh as well as emotion. In the information on posession that I have, I have also read that one subject was put under observation, and the body was consuming more that three times the standard amount or "resting" calories.

There is your techinical discussion. If you want the one that I'd give you regarding demonology, here it is:

Demons aren't normally given the right to wander our plane in anything more that an ephormoral(formless) body. This leads to the poulterguists, and violent hauntings. Thos that have the power, however, take over the heart/mind of a person. This would be done by feeding the darker parts of the mind(depression, psychosies, etc) so that it would have somwhere to "live".
Then, when the mind is at its weakest, the demon takes hold, that is why most posessions start as loss of control over many bodily systems(speach, excretion, etc) untill you get something like what you saw in "The Excorsist" and "Constantine". Then as the host body died(if it wasn't saved), the demon would lose its hold, and the body would be left to either die, or regenerate.

That's my 2 cents to that part of the subject...

James i'll warn you now Demons are not to be taking lightly. I had an experience with one of somesort "It" Possesed and old woman and was trying to kill my god son. It happened while i was on vaction in the voodoo capital of the western hemisphere a carribean island. Anyways the thing jumped on a 4-5 foot wall then leaped onto the roof of the house but luckily for my god son a man was walking by with a gun and shot and kept shooting until it jumped off. It then ran towards a dead boneless chicken but the mans companion stepped on the chicken and the old woman leaped over them but he shot her leg. When she landed the shot leg gave out and they beat her till she died rather it died.

This all happened in front of me i was in my vacation home looking through the window. The next morning where they threw the body it was gone.

So james don't mess around with it god doesn't like witchcraft. You can watch it on t.v. you know cause its fake but do not pursue it.

If you were where I think that you were I'm not suprised Haiti has a higher occurence of posessions that anywhere else because the magik that is used in voodoo has seeped into everything, making it a portal, of sorts. I keep a cross on every room in the house and have one on a necklass that was given to me by my local parish when I started my PI(Paranormal Investigation) stint with the police force.
It's not really that exciting, and the cases are so few that it really can't be called a job, more of a...hobby. I understand how dangerous it can be, I really do, but ESP isn't witchcraft, bro. I can assure you of that, simply because I know what it is, how it works, and the majorly defined origins of it. As long as you understand something, you can keep relitivly safe from it, even something like this.

I know psychic is a matter of mind not magic. But demons and ghost are and don't go too deep in that junk.
Haiti is like the "Hellmouth" it has taking over what africa was king of. At midnight if youre not partying you can't be outside unless you have "Mistic forces" like my bro said. His father is a Hogane. I fear him and any thing in his house but i don't beleive what he tells my bro.

If he's a true Hogane, I'd believe everything that man tells you cause it's gonna be true. The "Mystic Forces" your bro mentioned is very right. People without them tend to just...disappear. Going too deep, for me, is a bit too late. I have lived with ESP my whole life, ghosts, telepathy, the wole shibang. I'm over 90% Irish, and my family tree can be traced back to several powerful Druids. Talents like ESP run in my blood, and I learned to accept that when I was little and could talk to people who, my sister said, "Weren't there."
You can't deny what you've known your whole life...You just learn to live with it...

I do beleive but you know what hey say ignorance is bliss.
My bro's friend was walking with someone who was always bragging he has mistic forces. So it was 2:00 a.m. and they came from a club and my brother's friend said lets see if you really are what yu say. They took a "dangerous" toute known to have "demons" and my brothers friend just vanished. the following day he came up too his friend and said you made it through to night. ever since then no one walks with him at night cause that wasn't funny.

Slippers, you mentioned that a demon needs a host body to live, and were wondering why. If I were to go with the info I have, both on posession, and general demonology, I'd give you this:

During a posession, the human body can be seen to quickly deteriorate, and eat at itself. Demons have also been classified under the name, "The Famished" or "The Eaters". This would lead one to beleive that they subsist on flesh as well as emotion. In the information on posession that I have, I have also read that one subject was put under observation, and the body was consuming more that three times the standard amount or "resting" calories.

perhaps. but i'm leaning more toward the needy of hosts for their purpose. not for their survival. only time satan ever entered the body of human was judas, not because he wanted to feed the body but betray Jesus through him. some say God flooded the Noah's world because it was filled with giants resulted by fallen angels having relationship with daughters of men, trying to distort the lineage of Messiah. their purpose of stopping Messiah at whatever cost failed however, but their destructive ways and anger toward the humans wont change. like many demons named legion for example, they entered the body of a man and Jesus rebuked them, allowing them not to hurt man's body anymore. they begged to enter hords of swine and they did, swine(2000 of 'em) went mad and ran into river and killed themselves. showing their destructive purpose for defying God one way or the other.

There is your techinical discussion. If you want the one that I'd give you regarding demonology, here it is:

Demons aren't normally given the right to wander our plane in anything more that an ephormoral(formless) body. This leads to the poulterguists, and violent hauntings. Thos that have the power, however, take over the heart/mind of a person. This would be done by feeding the darker parts of the mind(depression, psychosies, etc) so that it would have somwhere to "live".
Then, when the mind is at its weakest, the demon takes hold, that is why most posessions start as loss of control over many bodily systems(speach, excretion, etc) untill you get something like what you saw in "The Excorsist" and "Constantine". Then as the host body died(if it wasn't saved), the demon would lose its hold, and the body would be left to either die, or regenerate.

That's my 2 cents to that part of the subject...

good catch. very informative. something to think about.

Comeon guys don't try to explain it without logic. Ignorance is bliss.

I don't believe Demons need a host body in order to live. They can be all around us and are all the time. Demons are fallen angels and are the workers of Satan. They themselves can do damage all on there own...do they possess people, yes I think they do, but they will also come to the person who asks for them too. I think that if a person is posessed by Demons that they can do what people call witchcraft and black magic. I think that when someone asks for Demons to come to them, they are really asking for the dark power they give.

I am being honest here when I say this, I am a witch and deal with htings like this all the time. Reading some of these posts reminds me of the quote my husband tells people, "Fear is the mind killer."(Dune) Fear is what things like that live off of. I have dealt with demons and ghosts, I have even had them come after me before.


One question: Where does it say that the demons lost their beauty? Satan is calle dthe bright and beautiful morning star for a reason. The image people have of demons come from the middle-ages and they used images from older religions to make up the pictures of the demons. In the old testament the "devil" was called "adversary" all other names for him came later. He only had a few forms, the snake is one.

As for ghosts, mostly what they are is residual traces of energy your mind forms that energy into some thing that you are expecting. This being my experience in this matter.

In anime's ... white hair normally is the sign of a character being evil or bad. So that means, my grandma was evil and, evil = demon ? Therefore, logic concludes my Grandma = Demon :shock:

It does say that Satan is beautiful...at first...but once we manage to get past that we see the hiddious creation that he is. The book of Revalations in the Bible discribes him as having the head of a ram...the body of a man...the legs of a goat, the wings of a dragon, and the tail of a lizard...to me...that sounds pretty scary.

Okay this question is for the witch.
Why did you choose to be what you are? you know you just gave away your shot at heaven right.
Why is it that people go to deep in these stuff. gosh we as humans don't have to know it all. haven't anyone evre heard "Ignorance is bliss."

That's not true at all Kuwabra...we don't get "shots" at Heaven. It's not like baseball where you get three strikes and you're out. God's grace is deeper and stronger than that...it's deeper and more loving than we can even begin to comprehend. If someone truely repents of their sins and accepts Jesus, then it doesn't matter what they've done...God still loves them and will be more than happy to let them into Heaven, but you have to mean it and live it.

It's true that we are human...but to turn a blind eye to this stuff isn't ingnorance...it's choosing to live the lie that these things don't exsist. We are human, which means that most of us are too curious for our own good, so yeah, we wonder about this stuff and we ask questions about it. That's what we're supposed to do.

Choosing to be a witch or a warlock doesn't make you a bad person...my cousin is a strong wican, but I still love him, and I don't shove my beliefs down his throat. Now when he asks, sure I answer his questions as best I can, but I refuse to tell someone something they don't want to hear.

When you said you had a question for "the witch", I am assuming you ment me.

I chose this path after great consideration. I was a very devout Christian in my teen years, but found it lacking and there was many things that I could not understand. And no one could help me find the answers, in other words I was ignored by the pastor and the other teachers in the church.

The path that I am on now does not give me all the answers but it allows me to be the way I belive that I am ment to be. As far as "my shot in Heaven" it was one of the things that I have thought about a lot. I don't belive I gave up much in all honesty. I have a place some where else, and as much as the Christians belive that to be Hell I don't.

My family are all Christian and I love them very much, and as I have pointed out to others there are many that I care for very deeply, just because they are of a different path than myself does not mean that I loath or hate them for it.

I hope I answered your question Kuwabara.

Very well put Skytiger...but I am really sorry that your pastor and teachers treated you that way...no one, doesn't matter who or what they are, or what the subject is about, deserves to be ignored.

So you mean to say that hell is not what it's prtrayed to be? You do what ever you want but that live style has always been portrayed as evil. I beleive it is evil and many. Sorry if i bothered you with that comment but i really wish that witchcraft would end.

Their Real!!!!!!

No Hell is real and it is a horrible place...I believe that those who go to Hell will suffer the pain that Jesus did on the cross for all eternity...but I don't condemn people for witchcraft...I wish it would end too...but at the same time...screaming at them and pounding religion down their throats isn't going to help anyone.

there's doctors' records about how they witness the reaction of their patients death and some become believers. one that reminds me of is one of patient's heart fails and was stop breathing for 2 mins or something, after doctor revived him back, the patient starts screaming to put the fire out of his feet, but he died soon after. alot of patients who experience hell are to be told that they completely forget when they recover because it is so horrific.

Damn. I hate it and Hell the reason i'm saying this is i'm trying to help. That lifestyle is not healthy or so i hear. I hate all magical mumbojumbo and beleive that its no match for a gun. Why go to witchcraft when you can us a 9mm? Just an opion i don't go any where where rumor has it of magical or wierd stuff without a fire arm.

That's kinda silly...I attended one wican ceramony with my cousin, and yeah it was kinda freaky...but nothing bad happened and I wasn't attacked by fiends from beyond...

I've been witness to severalt "true" hauntings. didnt that freak u out?

me and alex here are like the only ones at school who belive in ghosts...

*so proud of our individuality*

I think a lot of people believe...they just won't admit it for fear of rejection.

me and alex here are like the only ones at school who belive in ghosts...

*so proud of our individuality*
I sort of believe in ghost...and Prophet... your just retarded so you'd believe anything.

yeah i know, everyone thinks im stupid for beleiving it

heres a video on ghosts...http://media.ebaumsworld.com/index.php?e=realghost.wmv

and eva... you suck

I was just kidding gosh don't have to get all pissy...sheesh...I love you.

didnt that freak u out?

Actually, after growing up in a haunted house for the first 11 years of my life, they didn't really bother me...I just had become attuned to...presences... You'd be amazed at some of the non creepy stuff. You ever sit outside a house you had just toured, and had a professional electrician check out, but then sit out on the lawn and watch lights go on and off? Especially in a house that has no electrical service?
How about go through a house to ensure no one was in, turn on all the lights, lock it up, and then go sit in your car and watch a shadow go from room to room and turn off all the lights?
It gets scary as hell once in awhile, I won't lie to you there...I've had shit tossed at me in a room I was alone in...I've also been hit by people that weren't there, and had the cuts and/or bruises to prove it. All in all, though, I've had some amazing expereinces.

Sorry eva... i love you too man!

Back on Topic....

I didn't use to believe in ghosts...but the past several years I've done a lot of research...and I've decided that yes, ghosts and demons exsist. When you hear stuff on EVP, and you see pictures and movie footage...how can you not believe that stuff?

yeah i know, everyone thinks im stupid for beleiving it

heres a video on ghosts...http://media.ebaumsworld.com/index.php?e=realghost.wmv

Actually, that's a great vid. I had my Aunt(she works with digital editing in advertising) take this down to a frame-by-frame set of images, and it seems that after a little clarification(boost the contrast) you can see an outline. Nice find!

Aww man i'm the only one here in some state of Denial.:(

Its' like hell_cat said Some people don't admit it cause of fear. thats wgy i don't i think if i do they'll start to bother me and don't want that. What gives Ghost and Demons the right to plague us so?

here is another great movie on ghosts... this ones kind of long but a lot better

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/ghosts.html

Looks like a combination. Some of the pictures and video is faked, some of it is real. The thing about recording your TV, making it record its own veiw, I wouldn't recommend to anyone. I read about a case that someone did that, and now he's in a padded cell. Something on the tape drove him mad. The tape has been played subsiquently after...It's blank; no footage at all.
There is a chance that the guy was already loopy, but I found a later case, and the tape worked, there are faces, but after playing the tape, the room doveloped...problems, I actually refuse to go into, just know that there were injurys involved, and the three guys involved were the only ones in the room.

Damn all because if our stupidity. We humans are to curious for our own good. Thats why anime Villains always want to kill us we deserve it. If those boys were not curious that would not happen.

When looking at video footage you have to be careful what you believe and what you don't. It's so easy to fake video and EVP footage anymore.-_-;

SO if i dont Beleive then its not true? You know like the video if i act as though i dont see it then its npot there? or it wont affect me?

When looking at video footage you have to be careful what you believe and what you don't. It's so easy to fake video and EVP footage anymore.-_-;

I will agree with you on video, but as to EVP...I have to diagree. As the video said, the human voice is betwee, 30-300 hertz. 95% of all EVP is recorded below 30. That's not technically possible to even be audible, unless the tapes are amplified and and re-recorded at that volume.
So, EVP is harder to fake, but I won't say, however, that it is impossible.

Whats EVP?

Electronic Voice Print. Audio recordings, basically.;)

Like in white noise.

??? White noise...OH YEAH! I remember now! Yeah, that's a great example, Kuwabara! Yeah, all it is is a low fequency recording of a voice. I've heard ones that sound like...well...nothing, but there was some that I heard that about made me wet myself. Those are something that'll freak the shit out of anyone, once you show them the facts(voice range, record reange, etc.).

Have you ever been home alone and felt watched? I use to live in an apartment were even in the shower i felt watched. I was afraid to close my eyes to wash my face. But since we moved i haven't felt like that anymore. What does tha mean?

You, my friend, were in a haunted apartment. You subconsiously registered the fact that there was something there. However, your skepticism wouldn't allow the fact to link into your concious thoughts, this, in turn, caused your fear.
Inexplicible fear that is felt in a place that you are in is your concious mind's reaction to your subconsious knowledge of a haunting. Even if that fear is only momentary, your mind is still registering something. Like I said, I grew up with hauntings, so this kind of stuff rarely fazes me, but if you have never noticed things before, or had no knowledge of what it was, it creates fear.
ESP is present in all living things, it is a sense like all our others, and like our other senses, it can be developed more in some than in others. You sound like you have had minimal contact with the unknown, so your 6th sense isn't that powerful; whereas someone like myself that has had consistant contact, you just get to...know...when there is something there.
And to anwer the question that you posed to me, yes, I feel watched constantly, but I know who/what it is. I won't delve into the details, because I wish not to accidentily spark an arguement with anyone, just know that it is a kind force, that has been with me my entire life...

The Movie White Noise put EVP on the map, but there's a lot more to it than just that movie. Look up on Google or something EVP and there should be some websites that you can listen to it.:happy:

The Movie White Noise put EVP on the map, but there's a lot more to it than just that movie. Look up on Google or something EVP and there should be some websites that you can listen to it.:happy:

http://dawghouse.topcities.com/evp.html
Go about halfway down the page, and there are links to multiple EVP recordings.

I'm going to answer one of Kuwa's earlier questions. He asked "the witch" why he chose the path he's on. I'm not really sure who he was talking about, but I'll answer this one for myself as well, since I am a Pagan and practice the Craft as well.

I was once a devout Christian as well. But I found it to have too much dogma and not enough natural balance. "This is all the truth you'll ever need. Do NOT test it. It's perfect as it is." Yet, the Bible has been altered several times throughout history. King James was merely one person who decided to personalize it when having it interpretted to English.

In Paganism, on the other hand, we are given the truth and told to rigorously test it, experiment with it, and play with it, until we KNOW deep in our hearts that the truth is known and we understand exactly how it works.

You probably do wish Witchcraft would end, Kuwa. I'm sorry you feel that way, but it's not going anywhere anytime soon. It's been around for thousands of years and was around LONG before Christianity was. It's making a very strong comeback as we speak. Christians don't like it, but they now have a rival from the distant past that refused to lay down when they were told to die. But we don't have to fight over it. If we were all alike, there would be no progress for any of us.

I'm going to answer one of Kuwa's earlier questions. He asked "the witch" why he chose the path he's on. I'm not really sure who he was talking about, but I'll answer this one for myself as well, since I am a Pagan and practice the Craft as well.

I was once a devout Christian as well. But I found it to have too much dogma and not enough natural balance. "This is all the truth you'll ever need. Do NOT test it. It's perfect as it is." Yet, the Bible has been altered several times throughout history. King James was merely one person who decided to personalize it when having it interpretted to English.

In Paganism, on the other hand, we are given the truth and told to rigorously test it, experiment with it, and play with it, until we KNOW deep in our hearts that the truth is known and we understand exactly how it works.

You probably do wish Witchcraft would end, Kuwa. I'm sorry you feel that way, but it's not going anywhere anytime soon. It's been around for thousands of years and was around LONG before Christianity was. It's making a very strong comeback as we speak. Christians don't like it, but they now have a rival from the distant past that refused to lay down when they were told to die. But we don't have to fight over it. If we were all alike, there would be no progress for any of us.

i'm not kuwabara and have no idea what religion he is, but i'm responding as christian.

1. was king james only source of scripture christians and jews ever known throughout history?

2. did king james translated Isaiah in english, re-wrote back to hebrew and hid it in dead sea cave, including thousands of other hebrew, greek, latin texts founded else where so that modern ppl cant ever really know what was in original text?

3. if it is altered so badly, why cant ppl disprove bible over thousands of years? such as historical places that was mentioned in bible along with political situation that matches the period that was written.

4. bible says test all things so ppl wont be decieved, even if prophet approves to be 99% right and 1% wrong he is considered to be false because he wasnt correct 100% all of the time. bible gurantees that accuracy. where did you hear do NOT test it?

millions of christians are dying even today while secular world embraces pagan and other none-christian sects while numbers are christians are increasing regardless(sudan for example). if pagans are coming back strongly now because they arent persecuted anymore, that's really nothing.

On the contrary, they are persecuted. Quite unfairly, in most cases. I can go on all day about the stories and articles from all over the country where Pagans have suffered religious prejudism and persecution, but that'd take all day.

1. King James wasn't the only source, but he also wasn't the original source. The Bible was around long before he was and he had it changed when it was translated.

2. As far as your second question, I'm not sure I understand.

3. As I said, the Bible has been around for a while. But the Bible we know of today isn't what it was back then. Have you ever played a game called Telephone? Information changes and is reinterpretted as it's passed from one person to another. Think about how off an entire book would get being passed through generations spanning several hundred years. Considering how it's a verifiable fact that the Bible isn't what it used to be, the question should be why people can't PROVE it, not DISPROVE it.

4. I heard it from Christians. When I suggest researching Paganism to build understanding and combat persecution, they are quite insistant that the Bible says they can't. Of course, the Bible is also against run-away materialism, but we've pretty much overlooked that.

When I said "a rival from the distant past that refused to lay down when told to die," I was referring to the actual historical establishment of Christianity and the near death of Paganism itself. During this time, many European kings were accepting this new religion and chose to have their followers practice it as well. Many old religions were snubbed out. Paganism survived the establishment of Christianity and the Burning Times. We survived the Malleous Maleficarum!

and Judiasim survived the Holocoust.
Just about every religion has gone through some sort of trial in their history. Many people originally came to the newborn US of A because of the promise of freedom to pratice their religion.
On a side note, I watched an interisting doc the other nite about the Bible. The heads of the church at the time decided what books to keep and what books to leave out. They even credited writings to Paul that historians and scolars of this age have allegedly proven were not written by Paul himself. Half of what we see in the bible by Paul was not written in the same style and dialect; only 7 out of 14 can be verified as written by the same person.
If you're looking for accurate stories, I suggest doing what I assume slippers has done and investigate the Dead Sea Scrolls and other pre published bible writings.

Speaking as a Christain, I have nothing against Paginism. "Pagan" does not mean devil-worshiper. Nor does 'witch'. I'm sure there are some Pagens or witchs that fall into that catagory, but to assume that is rather prejiduced.

The wording of the Bible has changed with translations. That's a fact. Translation is a tricky thing, and sometimes the meaning gets changed with the word. The King James version really isn't the most accurate version, but then any translation may not be completly accurate. Learning ancient languages and going to the source will get you the correct version, though there are versions in English that are much closer now. However, this is one of those things that people must have faith in. That's really what religion is about out. You can't prove the existance of any god/goddess. You can't disprove it either, so it's just something you have to believe in. That's why there are so many religions out there. In my honest opinion, I don't have a problem with most of them. Yes, I'm Christian. That doesn't mean I have all the truth or that I'll discount that some other religious group has a part of the truth either. No one can know all the truth. We all view the world differently, so we all believe different things.

Now, as this thread has gone very off topic, please get back to what the topic is originally about. Turning this into Christians vs. Pagans is only fuel for flaming. If you want to discuss the finer points of your religious beliefs, please start a new topic or go to pm. Thank you.

never intended this to be pagan vs christian thread. split topic if you want.

1. bible is many books that made of witness account. but also with tens of thousands manuscripts that supports the accuracy of the bible. do you wonder what in the heck jewish ppl are holding when they are praying in front of wailing wall? it's old testament written in hebrew. surprising isnt it. but when it comes to translating the bible, couldnt the smartest race figure out how to translate it into english or other languages? they dont trust christians so they preserved it. surviving through crusade, holocaust and romans, you name it. they wont let some eurpean king personalize their sacred scripture where their entire belief and heritage is based upon. he isnt the only human capable of translating bible into english.

2. dead sea scroll is found in early 1900s along with other OT writings, dating back to more than 2000 years proving the accuracy of translation of old testament that we have now.

3. again, tens of thousands of manuscripts support it especially with new testament proves it's translation accuracy. that's more copy than any other ancient literature known in the world that time. new testament was original written in greek. that's how old testament was also translated to early christians and it spread like wild fire because it was the common language at that time.

4. you said you were devot christian once and you were surprised why they dont want to depend on witchcraft to defend their faith from persecution? and what do you mean by runaway materialism?


On a side note, I watched an interisting doc the other nite about the Bible. The heads of the church at the time decided what books to keep and what books to leave out. They even credited writings to Paul that historians and scolars of this age have allegedly proven were not written by Paul himself. Half of what we see in the bible by Paul was not written in the same style and dialect; only 7 out of 14 can be verified as written by the same person.


that's why catholics have additional books other than bible. bible says peter was married and catholic says he wasnt. mary had other children yet catholic says she was forever virgin etc that are contradictory to gospel.

when it comes to authorship, there is 1 i can think of that are clueless who the author was. paul wrote his epistles in prison mostly so some say he had scribes because he was in chains. paul only wrote greetings and close statement as his signiture because others were try to mimick his ministry. gnostic were also becoming popular so they tried to counterfeit authority of paul's letters. one of questionable letter, he writes his final farewell mentioning his closest friend that can trace to book of acts or other prison letters that makes it ligimate writing of paul.

I just realized we have a ghost in my house last night.

I was watching tv in my living room, home alone, when the tv volume started going down. It shows the meter on the tv, so I could see it going down also. So, I thought that one of my pets was sitting on the remote, so I looked around for the remote and it was sitting on the top of the couch with nothing around it. So, I turned up the volume again and thought (weird) and like 5 minutes later, it turned the volume down again. I turned the volume up again and said, "Kinda childish..." and it turned off the tv. So, I sighed and turned the tv back on and this time, it stayed on.

I shouldn't have to split the topic. If you wish to discuss this futher, please start a new one. Period.